KnightWRX
Apr 7, 04:43 AM
See, that is exactly not the purpose of OpenCL. OpenCL can also use specialized DSPs, if someone writes a compiler for them. OpenCL is GPU-independent, which is a problem, if you want to optimize your OpenCL-code for a specific GPU.
See, that's exactly the same thing I said. And see, that's exactly what the SB + Intel 3000 HD solution does not do. :rolleyes:
Look, you're saying the same thing I am, you just don't want to agree that the Intel 3000 HD solution is sub-par for OpenCL, a big feature Apple pushed with Snow Leopard. Stop being obtuse. Right now, SB does not run OpenCL code on a DSP or anything else, it runs on it the CPU, defeating the whole purpose.
nVidia 320M si about 20W, so they can use 17W processors on 11,6" and 25W processors on 13", with an increased battery life on both models.
You're forgetting that the 320m is more than just a graphics processor. SB still requires a south bridge which will also have a power rating.
See, that's exactly the same thing I said. And see, that's exactly what the SB + Intel 3000 HD solution does not do. :rolleyes:
Look, you're saying the same thing I am, you just don't want to agree that the Intel 3000 HD solution is sub-par for OpenCL, a big feature Apple pushed with Snow Leopard. Stop being obtuse. Right now, SB does not run OpenCL code on a DSP or anything else, it runs on it the CPU, defeating the whole purpose.
nVidia 320M si about 20W, so they can use 17W processors on 11,6" and 25W processors on 13", with an increased battery life on both models.
You're forgetting that the 320m is more than just a graphics processor. SB still requires a south bridge which will also have a power rating.
ergle2
Sep 20, 01:50 PM
No, one that just ignores you and your inquiries because it was already clear where you were coming from..thus I feel no obligation to engage you in my thought process and your self important questioning. Has nothing to do with my maturity, and everything to do with my lack of caring about you or your opinion.
Ah, a response that is pompous, imperious, petulant, inconsistent AND incorrect -- you didn't ignore me, after all, you were simply obnoxious and evasive with a serious of ridiculous replies.
Nice projection with the "self-important", though.
Where I was coming from was purely from a sense of curiosity as to why someone would apparently feel that technology can advance too quickly. It's not unobvious, I grant you, but a rather unobjectionable query to my mind.
Interestingly, it would appear you do care enough about my opinion - or perhaps that of other forum denizens? - to respond in a way you apparently consider to be "clever". Feel free to ignore me -- really, I can take it! I mean, I'm sure I'll probably suffer a couple of seconds of heartbreak sometime around, say, 2020, but I'll survive.
Oh and "thought process" - ROTFL - lovely!
Ah, a response that is pompous, imperious, petulant, inconsistent AND incorrect -- you didn't ignore me, after all, you were simply obnoxious and evasive with a serious of ridiculous replies.
Nice projection with the "self-important", though.
Where I was coming from was purely from a sense of curiosity as to why someone would apparently feel that technology can advance too quickly. It's not unobvious, I grant you, but a rather unobjectionable query to my mind.
Interestingly, it would appear you do care enough about my opinion - or perhaps that of other forum denizens? - to respond in a way you apparently consider to be "clever". Feel free to ignore me -- really, I can take it! I mean, I'm sure I'll probably suffer a couple of seconds of heartbreak sometime around, say, 2020, but I'll survive.
Oh and "thought process" - ROTFL - lovely!
April Dancer
Aug 12, 08:45 AM
Blimey, you guys do like to get your knickers in a knot for no reason! ;)
Whatever the ins and outs of networks etc across the globe, I'm sure it's something that Steve will have thought of. He's not going to want to limit this phone to just a percentage of the available users, he'll want it to be used by as many as possible, of course. So CDMA/GSM whatever, he'll have it covered.
I still think it'll be sim free and sold through the AS, with an eye on targeting those people who might have bought a Nano. OK it will affect Nano sales but it'll still be Apple who get the shekels and, if people want a phone with mp3 capability, they're only going to do what I did with the W800 if there's no Apple alternative. Apple might as well have a share of that market.
But mostly I just want him to get it out already. My W800 has given up the ghost and my contract is up now! I can't live without a phone and might have to be forced into the W850 when it comes out. I'd really hate to do that and know that the Mac Mobile is round the corner. :rolleyes:
Whatever the ins and outs of networks etc across the globe, I'm sure it's something that Steve will have thought of. He's not going to want to limit this phone to just a percentage of the available users, he'll want it to be used by as many as possible, of course. So CDMA/GSM whatever, he'll have it covered.
I still think it'll be sim free and sold through the AS, with an eye on targeting those people who might have bought a Nano. OK it will affect Nano sales but it'll still be Apple who get the shekels and, if people want a phone with mp3 capability, they're only going to do what I did with the W800 if there's no Apple alternative. Apple might as well have a share of that market.
But mostly I just want him to get it out already. My W800 has given up the ghost and my contract is up now! I can't live without a phone and might have to be forced into the W850 when it comes out. I'd really hate to do that and know that the Mac Mobile is round the corner. :rolleyes:
rdowns
Apr 28, 05:57 PM
all want to know is was why it always has to go to name calling..be it..wacko christians, teabaggers or racists conservatives..it seems like every thread any of the liberals on the forum posts always goes to calling names at whatever group it is that they have a problem with today.
I'm not a liberal but those sound like apt descriptions of some of the people who call themselves Republicans/Tea Party/Conservative. I long for the Republican Party my family supported.
I'm not a liberal but those sound like apt descriptions of some of the people who call themselves Republicans/Tea Party/Conservative. I long for the Republican Party my family supported.
chimerical
Nov 28, 07:42 PM
(Did the music companies ask for money for every CD player or Tape Recorder sold? Nope)
Actually, yes. I believe that CD-R/CD-RW blank discs and recorders have had some type of royalties fee added to the price, which gets passed down to us consumers. It's frustrating.
Actually, yes. I believe that CD-R/CD-RW blank discs and recorders have had some type of royalties fee added to the price, which gets passed down to us consumers. It's frustrating.
jaxstate
Aug 11, 02:41 PM
You guys are looking about a $500.00 phone...atleast.
I would add
post about LeBron James
First Look: LeBron James in a
Team today, Miami Heat,
LeBron James Miami Heat
lebron-james-miami-heat.jpg
Lebron James Decides to Join
Miami Heat Media Day
lebron james miami heat
lebron james miami heat
LeBron James has confirmed
the Miami Heat. Breaking
I would add
Kranchammer
Mar 31, 06:24 PM
I would add I never understand the comparison of Smartphones running Android to smartphones running IOS.
Neither Google or Apple sell their phone operating systems, and the Android spectrum is made up of 50 handsets from 10 different manufacturers who are in direct competition with each other. They are not one big group working together to take on Apple. It makes absolutely zero sense to make that kind of comparison.
It is just as weird as loping off iPod and iPad IOS users...
If people want to compare smartphones, then compare actual sales of individual smartphones, each which only use one OS. People should not draw meaningless lines in the sand lumping all android based handsets together, because they are not together other than they run android. They might as well compare black phones to white phones.
I imagine if you made a chart of the top selling smartphones in the last 5 years, it would consist of the iPhone 4, the iPhone 3GS, the iPhone 3G and the iPhone.
Why not group smartphones by what kind of graphics chip they have or what type of memory chip they use? The OS is irrelevant. Nobody in the smartphone business is directly making money off any of these oses, it is a stupid way to categorize smart phones.
Of course it happens because if they didn't lump them together it would look absurd with Apple totally dominating the smart phone market with their latest phone every year while 100 android commodity phones all have tiny market shares just to get replaced by the next one.
How does HTC running android OS benefit or relate to a Motorola phone running android? It does not, at all.
Hey, you! No rationality allowed in this here thread. Vitriol, stereotypes, and blanket generalizations only!
Shame on you. ;)
Neither Google or Apple sell their phone operating systems, and the Android spectrum is made up of 50 handsets from 10 different manufacturers who are in direct competition with each other. They are not one big group working together to take on Apple. It makes absolutely zero sense to make that kind of comparison.
It is just as weird as loping off iPod and iPad IOS users...
If people want to compare smartphones, then compare actual sales of individual smartphones, each which only use one OS. People should not draw meaningless lines in the sand lumping all android based handsets together, because they are not together other than they run android. They might as well compare black phones to white phones.
I imagine if you made a chart of the top selling smartphones in the last 5 years, it would consist of the iPhone 4, the iPhone 3GS, the iPhone 3G and the iPhone.
Why not group smartphones by what kind of graphics chip they have or what type of memory chip they use? The OS is irrelevant. Nobody in the smartphone business is directly making money off any of these oses, it is a stupid way to categorize smart phones.
Of course it happens because if they didn't lump them together it would look absurd with Apple totally dominating the smart phone market with their latest phone every year while 100 android commodity phones all have tiny market shares just to get replaced by the next one.
How does HTC running android OS benefit or relate to a Motorola phone running android? It does not, at all.
Hey, you! No rationality allowed in this here thread. Vitriol, stereotypes, and blanket generalizations only!
Shame on you. ;)
tortoise
Aug 23, 03:04 PM
Do you have a reference showing that this translates to better performance in real-world application tests in a head to head competition?
Not handy, since a lot of this happened on mailing lists.
The short version is that the memory performance scales in a very sub-linear fashion as a function of the number of cores being used, whereas Opteron scalability is almost linear up to a large number of cores. The good news is that for single dual-core processors the memory performance is on par with dual-core Opterons and their in-cache performance can be better. The bad news is that this performance does not hold as you scale cores in a system. So for some applications (e.g. those that live mostly in cache) the Woodcrest processors will be mildly faster than Opterons, but for most the performance is about even in real app benchmarks.
I've seen fairly comprehensive benchmarks for both databases and scientific computing applications, both of which thoroughly exercise the memory subsystem. Even though a single Intel core theoretically has more bandwidth, the high latency means that the real bandwidth is about the same as the slower Opterons (which have real bandwidth that approaches theoretical) and the cross-sectional bandwidth of Opterons when you get up to 4 cores and higher is much higher since the scaling is almost linear with the number of cores. For Intel, I think it was the case that a bigger cache was a cheaper design choice than a truly scalable memory subsystem. As a result, they will have different competencies. Some types of floating point codes should run very well on Intel.
Not handy, since a lot of this happened on mailing lists.
The short version is that the memory performance scales in a very sub-linear fashion as a function of the number of cores being used, whereas Opteron scalability is almost linear up to a large number of cores. The good news is that for single dual-core processors the memory performance is on par with dual-core Opterons and their in-cache performance can be better. The bad news is that this performance does not hold as you scale cores in a system. So for some applications (e.g. those that live mostly in cache) the Woodcrest processors will be mildly faster than Opterons, but for most the performance is about even in real app benchmarks.
I've seen fairly comprehensive benchmarks for both databases and scientific computing applications, both of which thoroughly exercise the memory subsystem. Even though a single Intel core theoretically has more bandwidth, the high latency means that the real bandwidth is about the same as the slower Opterons (which have real bandwidth that approaches theoretical) and the cross-sectional bandwidth of Opterons when you get up to 4 cores and higher is much higher since the scaling is almost linear with the number of cores. For Intel, I think it was the case that a bigger cache was a cheaper design choice than a truly scalable memory subsystem. As a result, they will have different competencies. Some types of floating point codes should run very well on Intel.
Gugulino
Apr 6, 03:29 AM
I hope that the new FCP will resemble iMovie: No need for rendering and a precision editor! I like the ease of use of iMovie, should be adopted by FCP.
BGil
Aug 7, 04:42 PM
Which takes us back to the behavior that was the default on VAX systems running VMS 20 years ago... Microsoft is implementing something similar in Vista as well. http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060730-7383.html
B
Yeah, Apple is definitely copying Microsoft now... it's pretty undeniable. Time Machine is virtually identical to Microsoft's backup system for Vista.
"Previous Docs" from Wikipedia:
"Previous Versions", previously known as Volume Shadow Copy in Windows Server provides read-only snapshots of files on local or network volumes from an earlier point in time. A new tab in the Properties dialog for any file or folder provides users with straightforward access to these previous versions.
System Restore, Shadow Copy, and Backup in Vista now run on the same technology (so they are considerably different than the XP versions).
iChat basically got the remote screen sharing feature that Microsoft shipped with XP in 2001 (included in Windows Messenger) and the presentation/app sharing features from Windows collaboration in Vista.
Mail and iCal got a bunch of features from Outlook 2007 and Windows Live Calendar/Mail.
Dashboard's ability to clip web pages is straight out of Active Desktop.
the Spotlight improvements were things that Indexing Server in XP/2000/2003 already did. Even windows desktop search (enterprise) and Vista include that functionality as well.
Spaces is virtual desktops just like the powertoy MS released years ago
http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/Virtual_Desktop_Manager_Powertoy/msvdm.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_desktop
Core Animation looks like Apple's response to all the DX and WPF (Avalon) animation tools in Vista.
B
Yeah, Apple is definitely copying Microsoft now... it's pretty undeniable. Time Machine is virtually identical to Microsoft's backup system for Vista.
"Previous Docs" from Wikipedia:
"Previous Versions", previously known as Volume Shadow Copy in Windows Server provides read-only snapshots of files on local or network volumes from an earlier point in time. A new tab in the Properties dialog for any file or folder provides users with straightforward access to these previous versions.
System Restore, Shadow Copy, and Backup in Vista now run on the same technology (so they are considerably different than the XP versions).
iChat basically got the remote screen sharing feature that Microsoft shipped with XP in 2001 (included in Windows Messenger) and the presentation/app sharing features from Windows collaboration in Vista.
Mail and iCal got a bunch of features from Outlook 2007 and Windows Live Calendar/Mail.
Dashboard's ability to clip web pages is straight out of Active Desktop.
the Spotlight improvements were things that Indexing Server in XP/2000/2003 already did. Even windows desktop search (enterprise) and Vista include that functionality as well.
Spaces is virtual desktops just like the powertoy MS released years ago
http://www.snapfiles.com/reviews/Virtual_Desktop_Manager_Powertoy/msvdm.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_desktop
Core Animation looks like Apple's response to all the DX and WPF (Avalon) animation tools in Vista.
wschutz
Mar 26, 08:19 AM
Um, there's only been one release since leopard. Too soon to know if Lion will wow or not.
I'll save you a headache... it will.. not
Apple has realized it can squeeze people's pocket as much as it wants... for that reason, it is releasing a couple of features (and still not with the latest technology as expected) as new products... from time to time... Apple includes something innovative (such as Thunderbolt though given that no other manufacturer is developing the standard it is kind of useless...).
Therefore, I do not expect anything else from Apple. Lion will be just a mere touch of make-up and a few changes towards making the experience of the newest and most profitable business of Apple... AppStore. So people will be buying a better integration of a application store with the OS...
(And no... integrating Spaces, Expos�, Dashboard and including some of the things from iOS is not worth a new OS... at least Microsoft, and I hate it, does a complete overhaul of everything; sometimes it fails, and sometimes it succeeds)
NB: For those English native speakers... which is the best subject when addressing a company, for instance, Apple/Microsoft...? I used "it" here, but sometimes I also use "they"... and I don't know which one is correct!
I'll save you a headache... it will.. not
Apple has realized it can squeeze people's pocket as much as it wants... for that reason, it is releasing a couple of features (and still not with the latest technology as expected) as new products... from time to time... Apple includes something innovative (such as Thunderbolt though given that no other manufacturer is developing the standard it is kind of useless...).
Therefore, I do not expect anything else from Apple. Lion will be just a mere touch of make-up and a few changes towards making the experience of the newest and most profitable business of Apple... AppStore. So people will be buying a better integration of a application store with the OS...
(And no... integrating Spaces, Expos�, Dashboard and including some of the things from iOS is not worth a new OS... at least Microsoft, and I hate it, does a complete overhaul of everything; sometimes it fails, and sometimes it succeeds)
NB: For those English native speakers... which is the best subject when addressing a company, for instance, Apple/Microsoft...? I used "it" here, but sometimes I also use "they"... and I don't know which one is correct!
Reach9
Apr 11, 05:57 PM
Yea that is obvious. The iPhone is better.
Makes sense coming from an Apple Fan :rolleyes:
Makes sense coming from an Apple Fan :rolleyes:
applefan289
Apr 6, 01:36 PM
:apple:
That's all I have to say.
That's all I have to say.
ergle2
Sep 14, 08:42 PM
I think you're a bit arse-about-face there. Someone else has already pointed out the differences between XP and Windows 2003 aren't trivial, so I won't go into that. However, if you're sufficient vintage, you should remember the "outrage" when someone demonstrated that you could turn NT 4 Workstation into NT 4 Server (including the boot and login screens) just by changing a few Registry settings (although the part that usually doesn't get said is that those Registry settings then triggered a whole range of different tuning settings for the scheduler, memory management, etc). NT 3.5 & 3.51 were the same, and IIRC, NT 3.1 didn't even have a "Server" version.
The comments about separate platforms in the NT era I took to refer to NT3.x/4 vs Win9x.
Quite a few bits of XP Pro functionality can be enabled in XP home with some minor hex editing, too.
And of course, NT started as a reimplementation of VMS for a failed Intel RISC CPU...
The comments about separate platforms in the NT era I took to refer to NT3.x/4 vs Win9x.
Quite a few bits of XP Pro functionality can be enabled in XP home with some minor hex editing, too.
And of course, NT started as a reimplementation of VMS for a failed Intel RISC CPU...
�algiris
Mar 31, 03:27 PM
Android > iOS.
I was blind, but now i see. Oh wait ...
I was blind, but now i see. Oh wait ...
bazaarsoft
Mar 31, 02:30 PM
At least, that's what the Fandroids wanted us to believe when Android fragmentation started being tossed around as a problem. Where are those guys now that Google is actually acknowledging that it's a problem? :eek:
Hugh
Mar 3, 10:23 PM
Being gay is not a sin, homosexual actions are a sin.
Query: How do meat bags such as yourself live with such amounts of water sloshing around in you?
That is because we are ugly bags of water. ;)
Note: Now that LeBron James
Lebron-james-miami-heat-jersey
Query: How do meat bags such as yourself live with such amounts of water sloshing around in you?
That is because we are ugly bags of water. ;)
wpotere
Apr 28, 01:28 PM
...so what you said about doubting and not believing is not true.
Haven't you noticed this trend in everything he posts? I called him out ages ago.
Haven't you noticed this trend in everything he posts? I called him out ages ago.
BaldiMac
Apr 19, 02:27 PM
So the interesting fact is:
Verizon iPhone release didn't help Apple to stop losing marketshare although everyone said the deal will quadruple iPhone sales. :rolleyes:
iPhone Q1/11: 19 million (+ 2.5 million)
Android Q1/11: 38 million (+8 million)
Ouch. No wonder they are now sueing HTC and Samsung. If you can't beat them in the market, beat them in court. Apple must have learned that from Nokia (like they learned the choppy animations when you start third party apps in iOS 4.3.2 from Symbian).
Sigh. The iPhone is still gaining market share. Not losing market share.
Verizon iPhone release didn't help Apple to stop losing marketshare although everyone said the deal will quadruple iPhone sales. :rolleyes:
iPhone Q1/11: 19 million (+ 2.5 million)
Android Q1/11: 38 million (+8 million)
Ouch. No wonder they are now sueing HTC and Samsung. If you can't beat them in the market, beat them in court. Apple must have learned that from Nokia (like they learned the choppy animations when you start third party apps in iOS 4.3.2 from Symbian).
Sigh. The iPhone is still gaining market share. Not losing market share.
mattsh
Sep 19, 06:24 AM
to be honest - i've been looking at the lenovo offerings and i'm attracted. i have been a diehard apple fan my entire life, but if all it means is i have to use tiger clone (aka vista) but at least have hardware that is current with technology i'll buy.
so yes, apple has a monopoly, but they can't be to jack ass about it because people will start to go other places no matter how good ilife is.
there is no excuse that one of the top 5 notebook venders in the united states on intel architecture is behind this much its competitors.
You know I've been thinking about this. Does Apple really NEED to update now? I mean what's the purpose of the update? Yes there is 64bit, but other then that? Not much. A LITTLE more speed, but OSX already runs pretty fast... faster then Windows would with comparible hardware. OSX already does more then Windows does and does it better. Maybe Apple doesn't NEED To stay up with the latest processor fad because they are already better then the competition.. maybe the competition NEEDS faster hardward because they OS is so bloated it runs slowly unless they have it. Ever think of that? Honestly, I'm 100% happy with my current MB which does not have the new processor in it. I launch most programs in under a second.:D
so yes, apple has a monopoly, but they can't be to jack ass about it because people will start to go other places no matter how good ilife is.
there is no excuse that one of the top 5 notebook venders in the united states on intel architecture is behind this much its competitors.
You know I've been thinking about this. Does Apple really NEED to update now? I mean what's the purpose of the update? Yes there is 64bit, but other then that? Not much. A LITTLE more speed, but OSX already runs pretty fast... faster then Windows would with comparible hardware. OSX already does more then Windows does and does it better. Maybe Apple doesn't NEED To stay up with the latest processor fad because they are already better then the competition.. maybe the competition NEEDS faster hardward because they OS is so bloated it runs slowly unless they have it. Ever think of that? Honestly, I'm 100% happy with my current MB which does not have the new processor in it. I launch most programs in under a second.:D
regandarcy
Apr 6, 04:06 PM
I've never liked backlit keys and have it turned off on my MBPs. I find it annoying, personally, but I do touch type so I'm never looking at the keys. I totally understand those who do want that feature (and Apple should add it to the MBA because it appears to be important for a enough people), but personally I don't care for it and am glad I can turn it off.
I'm with you buddy. I totally don't need it either. Even if I was a hunt and peck guy, I could see keyboard fine in a dark room just by the light of the screen so I don't see the point. But that's just me. Personally I'd rather not have it drain my battery.
But since I am such a good touch typist, I don't have to worry about that. :-)
But to each their own.
I'm with you buddy. I totally don't need it either. Even if I was a hunt and peck guy, I could see keyboard fine in a dark room just by the light of the screen so I don't see the point. But that's just me. Personally I'd rather not have it drain my battery.
But since I am such a good touch typist, I don't have to worry about that. :-)
But to each their own.
aftk2
Aug 25, 04:09 PM
Speaking as someone whose iMac G5 has been out of commission and in the nearby Apple Store for thirty days (!), I'm not the happiest Apple user, either. Thing is, I've only ever had good experiences, prior to this. For example, I had one of the early Apple Studio Displays (the ones that looked like oversized bondi blue iMacs), and when it started wonking out, Apple sent me a box, shipping label pre-printed, and repaired it for free, even after it was out of warranty (there was a known defect.)
This latest episode has been pretty aggravating, though (although the only saving grace is that I'll likely be able to score an Intel iMac out of the deal, which I'm somewhat excited about.)
Heh, maybe I should have the Apple Store twiddle their thumbs for a few more weeks, and I might be able to grab a Core 2 Duo version. :P
This latest episode has been pretty aggravating, though (although the only saving grace is that I'll likely be able to score an Intel iMac out of the deal, which I'm somewhat excited about.)
Heh, maybe I should have the Apple Store twiddle their thumbs for a few more weeks, and I might be able to grab a Core 2 Duo version. :P
Denarius
Mar 22, 07:36 PM
Don't tell me a flagship armed with 100 Tomahawk missiles and full targeting information just happened to be passing.
I think if military action of this scale is even a possibility, whether you've made a decision, it's pretty normal to put the necessary pieces on standby. I believe keeping strategic targeting information regularly up to date is pretty normal military practise even when you're not at war.
I think if military action of this scale is even a possibility, whether you've made a decision, it's pretty normal to put the necessary pieces on standby. I believe keeping strategic targeting information regularly up to date is pretty normal military practise even when you're not at war.
leekohler
Apr 28, 03:53 PM
I wonder what it would be like to go through life looking for racism around every corner? Constantly seeing the world in these glasses would have to be very tiresome and frustrating. Pretty sad really. People need to stop thinking about themselves and others as being members of groups, and start thinking of everyone as individuals. We're a society of individuals, we get our rights and our liberties as individuals, not because we're part of group A or group B.
We will when conservatives quit giving us very good reasons for believing so. And we don't have to look around every corner. Conservatives bring it right into people's faces.
If liberals would stop 'crying wolf' ('claiming racism') at every corner, we might actually take them seriously and help out when there's actual evidence.
Hmm...and just why did you obsess all day yesterday about "layers" in the online PDF or the birth certificate?
We will when conservatives quit giving us very good reasons for believing so. And we don't have to look around every corner. Conservatives bring it right into people's faces.
If liberals would stop 'crying wolf' ('claiming racism') at every corner, we might actually take them seriously and help out when there's actual evidence.
Hmm...and just why did you obsess all day yesterday about "layers" in the online PDF or the birth certificate?
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